[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 488: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 488: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 488: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 488: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 488: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 488: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 488: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 488: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 488: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 488: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 488: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 488: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 488: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 488: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 488: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 488: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 488: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 488: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 488: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 488: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 488: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 488: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 488: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 488: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 488: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 488: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 112: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 112: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 112: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 112: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/functions.php on line 4762: Cannot modify header information - headers already sent by (output started at [ROOT]/includes/functions.php:3897)
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/functions.php on line 4764: Cannot modify header information - headers already sent by (output started at [ROOT]/includes/functions.php:3897)
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/functions.php on line 4765: Cannot modify header information - headers already sent by (output started at [ROOT]/includes/functions.php:3897)
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/functions.php on line 4766: Cannot modify header information - headers already sent by (output started at [ROOT]/includes/functions.php:3897)
forum.kymlun.com • View topic - Raise Dead and Ressurrection

Login | Register


All times are UTC + 1 hour [ DST ]


It is currently Oct 6th, '22, 16:44




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 46 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2, 3, 4  Next
Author Message
PostPosted: Apr 11th, '09, 21:02 
Level 3 Player Character
User avatar

Joined: Apr 8th, '09, 22:02
Posts: 15
Having observed things for a while, and played a cleric, I've come to think that raise dead eating your exp and ressurrection taking a diamond to work is a bit unfair.

The ability to raise your fallen companions serves only to get them back into the action on the spot, instead of having them to respawn in a temple or a similar location. That's really the only beneefit. Raise dead even fails in that, since it places your friend in a direct danger of dying again - and losing further gold and xp.

The problem is a simple one: raise dead can end up taking more exp (delevel) than respawning through a faith token would. Ressurrection works only as a cheap raise dead, since diamonds are ridiculously rare (I take all of you don't even know how to get them - neither do I).

What I'm saying is that this kind of setting makes two spells unique to cleric rather useless - even harmful to use. Why is this? It's not like people didn't raise from dead in this setting often enough, returning to temples and such and even being helped by dieties directly. Surely it can't be that you'd think that it'd be out of place to have a diety's direct messenger being able to perform such feats without risking the diety's ire - after all your actions serve to further the word about the diety you serve.

Moreover, there are not so many clerics on the server that are able to perform ressurrection that one should feel a need to limit their amount and abilities in order to make people's life harder, and the ones that die are more often new player characters, whose losing of xp and gold serves little purpose. Actually deleveling them through "helping" is not helping either.

The only situation that makes the cleric's spells a bit harsh is when in combat with other players, and being able to even odds by raising your party members as they fall. However, it is not entirely unfair as the other side could have clerics as well, and since there is a rest timer, you can not just go into an endless spree of ressurrecting your fallen. That is not the only thing that limits one's ressurrections, as some of the cleric's best offensive spells are at the same level (word of faith, destruction).

This being the case, it must be also stated that the situations where a cleric is present and a player dies are rather rare. It is not often that a cleric gets an opportunity to shine and help people in such a dire situation. Therefore it is a bit unreasonable to actually be able only to hinder them, unless you have some diamonds. Even if you had some, would you waste them on a newcomer, or on an ally of your level to pass a quest or beat some monster? In general, restricting raise dead and ressurrection seems rather pointless (even if p'n'p is cool), since you are bound to end up dead more often in nwn - and especially in this server. Also, as respawning seems to be rather expensive for high level (epic) characters, having a cleric around might be a great relief. I do not see any rp being damaged by giving the class some value over just being the divine buffbot.

(During most of the campaigns I've played on p'n'p, we usually end up using ressurrection only once if at all - one time being when our monk was turned into a gem golem and we anhillated him.. ah the memories.)

_________________
More, just to be sure
I got what I wanted, so naturally I want more
What I paid for, entertain me now
All I want is more, cos I like it
Too good to let it go, keep it coming
Cos I want more, cos I'm not sure
What I really wanted, so all I want is more


Top
 Offline Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Apr 11th, '09, 21:42 
Masters of Fate
User avatar

Joined: May 4th, '05, 16:31
Posts: 528
Location: The Netherlands
I believe the true reason for this lay behind the Free For All ressurection rod bought at any temple. Warriors and rogue's walking around with 10 rods = 10x10 ressurections etc etc etc.
Instead of removing those, they added diamonds and xp penalties, screwing up cleric spells.
Generally, it wasn't so bad at the beginning where higher level clerics could actually farm diamonds from some monsters. Now, those are gone. There's also a 1% chance of ruby drops, nerfing Harm as well from full potential.

I don't feel like debating, but as it is now, get rid of that stuff and just stick to NOT selling res rods.

_________________
Image


Top
 Offline Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Apr 12th, '09, 02:13 
Level 15 Player Character
User avatar

Joined: Feb 15th, '05, 12:02
Posts: 545
Location: Panik Manifesto
What I preached at the beginning, but it was decided to go the way we have it now.

Same with sequencer rods.

_________________
"No motion has she now, no force;
She neither hears nor sees;
Rolled round in earth's diurnal course,
With rocks, and stones, and trees."


Top
 Offline Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Apr 12th, '09, 10:27 
Twilight Council
User avatar

Joined: Nov 24th, '04, 01:09
Posts: 2367
Location: TOOOOLSET!!
Nothing is wrong with spell components, and resurrection costing money and xp. It has been proven by Alchaine himself that one can gain high amounts of gold in the module which he can do nothing with. The diamond cost shouldn't be a problem, we'll just install a vendor.

Death was supposed to be painful and with the equipment available it shouldn't happen too often if we use our heads.

If anybody has suggestions as to how to change the death rules I'll take suggestions, however. But make it good ;)

_________________
"There is no Sparta.
THIS. IS. SPOON!!"


Top
 Offline Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Apr 12th, '09, 15:02 
Level 5 Player Character

Joined: Apr 7th, '07, 13:15
Posts: 67
Location: The Netherlands
Well, for one, I'd love to be able to have a cleric that can use Resurrection. The old Rods were quite helpful, but they did take away the chance for RPing the cleric's role. I remember one server where part of the party would swarm out to find a cleric and call for his aid if one had fallen. It made death more realistic somehow.
For the rest I think Kymlun's death-system is quite easy on characters. The gold and xp can both be easily replaced, if one wants to (at least as far as I know. Not sure how it works for higher levels).
So, let me end with an Hurray for a diamond-vendor!!

SP


Top
 Offline Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Apr 12th, '09, 15:20 
Twilight Council
User avatar

Joined: Nov 13th, '06, 13:41
Posts: 1249
Location: In ur base killin ur doods.
Better yet I can swiften the mining system if need be. We can throw down mines in caves and on mountains which will contain various ores (pretty useless until smithing comes along), and from time to time various gems such as flourspar, emerald, diamond and ruby. Granted, I'll need 2 - 3 weeks of me-time before I can begin on that, but once my courseworks out of the way I've got some weeks of vince-time to burn.

_________________
Never under estimate the power that language imparts. Sticks and stones may break your bones, but words can break hearts.

Image


Top
 Offline Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Apr 15th, '09, 15:57 
Twilight Council
User avatar

Joined: Nov 24th, '04, 18:55
Posts: 620
Location: The zephyr lands 'neath the brine
In my opinion, characters should usually strive not to get killed. Whilst the resurrection rods did their own part to make death a trivial setback, they are not the main reason the spells come with some limitations. In fact you'll find that they're generally easier to use than a priest spell as they come with a built-in diamond. On the other hand, being raised by a cleric means you suffer a smaller xp penalty. The combination of the two, then, is perhaps the most effective of all.
The reason behind the xp penalty is that players hate to lose xp. This makes dying something to avoid, which suits the main objective neatly. The height of the penalty is always up for debate, but currently at the low end of the spectrum. Respawning should always be more pricey as you do not put forth the effort needed in finding a priest or casting a spell.
For an in-character explanation, being dead slowly destroys connections between brain parts and a cleric can't know just what loose end belonged where so it doesn't get fixed. If you're dead for too long there's too big a mess to make sense of.
The reason behind the diamond and gold component requirements is that these are not spells to cast carelessly. Yes, NPCs are frequently brought back from the dead and nearly all PCs die a few times in their careers if not more often. But if life is no miracle and death is nothing to fear, that makes for a rather bland existence. If you don't want to RP bowel movements, that's fine, but here's a field we're not glossing over.

Do raising penalties affect new characters more harshly than others? I don't think that's true. Perhaps they do most of the dying, but they also gain most of the xp. The gold cost to raise them is lowest, as is the net xp loss. And if anyone benefits from the bleeding rules it's this group of characters, as long as they remember to team up with a healer in possession of spells or kits rather than diving into dark evil lairs on their own. Sometimes you get unlucky. Sometimes it's ignorance. Most of the time you die from recklessness.

So what is a resurrection? Is it a god's gift to make a fallen warrior jump right back into the fray? Or is it a more gentle and meticulous way to mend the body and draw a lost soul back inside? As there are so few clerics in Kymlun, as there are rarely clerics around when people die, as they don't want to spend their diamonds on newcomers, I imagine it's the latter. You can always follow a Raise Dead effect with a Heal spell, but overall it's a bad idea to draw someone back into a vulnerable state while combat still rages all around. A wise cleric knows this.

Does a raise serve a deity's goals? Perhaps. More often it is a matter of one player feeling sympathetic towards another's pains - we've all died before and know it hurts. A component cost makes clerics consider whether what they want to do is really worth doing. Do they make a sacrifice to help someone? Will that help or hinder their deity?
There's another side to components as well. A cleric can cast his spells to maximum effect with sufficient components, but any victim can also carry components in case the cleric has none. Characters can use this as a contingency against death if they're resourceful enough to gather the gold or diamonds.

Back to the practical side of things. You play, you die, and there happens to be a cleric around. What happens? It depends on the plans you made beforehand. If you just levelled and would rather the Respawn penalties than the Raise ones, just communicate the desire. If you don't want to lose gold, tell the priest not to resurrect you unless you or they have a diamond to spare.
There are several ways to return to the game, all with one cost or another. I don't feel that because diamonds are hard to get, making it difficult to instantly restore someone to life and full health, the cleric class is suffering greatly (even without counting their many other perks). Nor are the penalties all that rough.

If you do want to get your hands on a diamond or two meanwhile, maybe you could contact a DM and see if you can quest for it. But death will still smart even with those in your pocket. Just because it's supposed to, and I for one don't see why that should change.

_________________
What the king dreams, the Hand builds.


Top
 Offline Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Apr 17th, '09, 19:20 
Level 3 Player Character
User avatar

Joined: Apr 8th, '09, 22:02
Posts: 15

_________________
More, just to be sure
I got what I wanted, so naturally I want more
What I paid for, entertain me now
All I want is more, cos I like it
Too good to let it go, keep it coming
Cos I want more, cos I'm not sure
What I really wanted, so all I want is more


Top
 Offline Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Apr 17th, '09, 20:07 
Twilight Council
User avatar

Joined: Nov 24th, '04, 18:55
Posts: 620
Location: The zephyr lands 'neath the brine

_________________
What the king dreams, the Hand builds.


Top
 Offline Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Apr 17th, '09, 20:49 
Level 3 Player Character
User avatar

Joined: Apr 8th, '09, 22:02
Posts: 15

_________________
More, just to be sure
I got what I wanted, so naturally I want more
What I paid for, entertain me now
All I want is more, cos I like it
Too good to let it go, keep it coming
Cos I want more, cos I'm not sure
What I really wanted, so all I want is more


Top
 Offline Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Apr 17th, '09, 21:29 
Twilight Council
User avatar

Joined: Nov 24th, '04, 01:09
Posts: 2367
Location: TOOOOLSET!!

_________________
"There is no Sparta.
THIS. IS. SPOON!!"


Top
 Offline Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Apr 17th, '09, 22:38 
Level 3 Player Character
User avatar

Joined: Apr 8th, '09, 22:02
Posts: 15
That does not erase the problem of dying and the high cost of respawning. It makes things unnecessarily hard, and it could easily be helped by giving clerics what they should have.

Anyway, I've spoken my mind. It's up to you to do something if you are to do anything at all.

Ps. High level is required, as you just get pushed around in most events and many players push you around anyway only because they have something that you don't. Also, as long as a level 24 character attacking a level 13 one on sight is acceptable, I am, myself, highly inclined to reach level 40 myself and kick the butt of whoever that did it. Even if I'm not really offended or feeling sour, retribution is always nice. So leveling is more "necessary" than you may think. Accepting the policy "not to grind and only roleplay" ends up in you being pushed around forever, never gaining any strength of your own - and before you say it, no, xp granted from roleplaying is too low to sustain a steady character development. 150 exp for a level 3 character for a thee hour quest is not going to help them much when they are compared to level 40 peers.

_________________
More, just to be sure
I got what I wanted, so naturally I want more
What I paid for, entertain me now
All I want is more, cos I like it
Too good to let it go, keep it coming
Cos I want more, cos I'm not sure
What I really wanted, so all I want is more


Top
 Offline Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Apr 17th, '09, 22:56 
Masters of Fate
User avatar

Joined: Jan 9th, '07, 15:48
Posts: 637
Location: Somewhere beyond the clouds
I have to admit that I'm feeling a little confused at the moment, considering I know very few high-level characters who "bully" low-levels, considering that it goes against server policy, and is just plain rude to begin with. Those who -do- bully -anyone- for that matter, more than likely have relatively respectful roleplay reasoning behind it. Things that are done in-character, and what-have-you.

I've seen plenty of lower-level players who have one-upped the high-levels during DM-run events and the like, and the high-levels respect that and realize that the lower-levels are developing. o_O It should also be noted that in the Entryway of the module, on the Rules Signs, it's pointed out that we don't take "level" into account on Kymlun. They don't exist from an RP standpoint, and the majority of the players know that rule well enough to not act otherwise.

~Galiae

_________________
Image


Top
 Offline Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Apr 17th, '09, 22:56 
Twilight Council
User avatar

Joined: Nov 24th, '04, 18:55
Posts: 620
Location: The zephyr lands 'neath the brine
We've rules on pvp which basically say that unless both players agree to fight it's not happening. They also say that anything game mechanics allow in a pvp fight, goes, unless you specify what you consider to be unfair and agree not to use those aspects.
In addition, higher level characters have a responsibility to try and avoid using force to boss lower levels around (though lower levels might want to award them some respect regardless).
So no, it's not alright to attack other players on sight unless you gave the okay for it.

Of course, it's stuck on communication again. But then no one's a mind reader so you have to talk about your expectations if you want them to be taken into consideration.

I'll grant you there are many ways to die, and the monsters living in certain areas don't bother sending their strongest cousins indoors when it's just a low level adventurer visiting the site.
But a Raise Dead at 500 gold/level of the victim and a loss of 100 xp/level amounts to 6000 gold and 1200 xp for a 12th level victim - I find that extremely lenient as far as death penalties go, especially given the amount of xp monsters award.
I'm perfectly happy to change the rules on death, but they would have to be a change towards a better system. So far I'm not convinced the vanilla cleric spells are the better alternative.

_________________
What the king dreams, the Hand builds.


Top
 Offline Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Apr 17th, '09, 23:10 
Furfag
User avatar

Joined: Jul 20th, '07, 10:30
Posts: 801
I'm sorry but i have to add my two cents on this, it's uncalled for for a epic character to bully a lvl 3 with little or no reason just to kill. I don't care how much rp is behind it, it just shuns them off feeling they don't belong here or better off to.

As i myself seen and been through
and many complaints come my way -.-


Top
 Offline Profile  
Reply with quote  
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 46 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2, 3, 4  Next

All times are UTC + 1 hour [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
cron